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Mike Konrad on Naivety and a Terrible Sense of Risk

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If you are an entrepreneur, and aspiring entrepreneur, or have the misfortune of having one in the family, this Fireside Chat with the Xperts is for you. Mike Konrad of Aqueous Technologies and the Reliability Matters podcast join David Kruidhoff and Dr. Bill Cardoso for a fun and inciteful conversation about, among other things, the essential attributes of entrepreneurs.

Automobile analogies abound as the conversation deftly maneuvers from start-up risk to growth, and sustaining a mature enterprise.  You may find it inspiring, you may find it discouraging, but you won’t find it boring.  Should you open your dream business or take a trip to ‘Vegas?  You may find the answer in this lively Fireside Chat with the Xperts!

Enjoy the video, and then reach out to us directly with any question.  Register for upcoming Fireside Chats with the Xperts and view our archives here.

 

Transcript:

David Kruidhof:
Welcome, everybody, to another Fireside Chat with the Xperts. Here again with Dr. Bill Cardoso. We have a special guest with us today, Mike Konrad with Aqueous Technologies. Welcome, Mike.

Mike Konrad:
Thank you. Good to be here.

David Kruidhof:
Yeah. Good to have you. We’re big fans of your podcast, so I’m very happy to have you on with us.

Mike Konrad:
Well, thanks.

David Kruidhof:
So maybe you can give a quick introduction of yourself, your technology and your company, what you guys do?

Mike Konrad:
Sure. Well, again Mike Konrad, I founded a company called Aqueous Technologies in 1992. We build cleaning equipment for the electronic industry. Basically post reflow cleaning of circuit boards, flux removal, other contaminant species removal, stencil cleaning, ionic contamination testing, anything to do with that. We’re pretty narrow-focused. We’re not a very broad company. We offer cleaning and cleanliness testing. That’s pretty much our core competency. I started in this cleaning industry in 1985, and… That’s very sweet Bill, that was… Kissing your kids to go off to school?

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Yeah, she went to the dentist. So she came to say goodbye.

Mike Konrad:
Awe, that’s sweet.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Yes. Yeah.

Mike Konrad:
Make me miss my grandchildren. So, when I started in this industry in 1985, and worked for a company, developed their cleaning line. They were a soldering company, soldering equipment company, and I worked to develop a line of cleaners because the rumor was that cleaning was going to become more required. Turned out to be the opposite, so much for my prediction skills. But there was a treaty in 1989 called, The Montreal Protocol, and that treaty would ban the solvents that were going to be used, 1,1,1-Trichloroethane, free on TMS, that were being used to clean circuit boards, it would be a ten-year phase out because of the CFC issue and ozone depletion and all of that. It was a big environmental treaty.

Mike Konrad:
And my thought was, we need to get into the water-based cleaning, the aqueous based cleaning side, because the solvents are all going away, which was true. However, necessity being the mother of invention, no clean flux was introduced. So, instead of everyone switching over to aqueous, to water based, a lot of the industries switched over to not cleaning at all. So, our business back in those days was mainly to military, and medical, and space, and high rail manufacturers because they clean regardless. They don’t buy into the no clean concept.

Mike Konrad:
So, as soon as we started the business, three quarters of our potential customer base kind of went away. But over the course of the last 30 years or so, cleaning has kind of come back into vogue because of things like miniaturization, boards are getting very small. The space between conductors is microscopically small. And it turns out that the smaller the gap between the cathode and anode, between the conductors of a board, the less tolerance for residue between those places. If you want to put things close together, that gap has to be cleaner than if you have them farther apart.

Mike Konrad:
So, cleaning has come back into vogue again, and we’re rocking, and I’m sure every other cleaning equipment company and cleaning chemical company is rocking right now, too, because of all of the things that I’ve mentioned. Then IOT is a big friend of ours because internet of things, we’re putting electronics into things that we’ve never had them in before, and then dragging them outside with us. And harsh environments are really good for the cleaning business too, because the harsher the environment, the more it reacts with any residues that are left on the board, so. So anyway, a very long answer to your short question. That’s what we do at Aqueous.

David Kruidhof:
That’s what we specialize in here.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
What? Long answers to short questions?

David Kruidhof:
We could spend the whole half an hour on one question. Yeah.

Mike Konrad:
Bill and I worked together on the SMTA board. So, I think we are aware of each other’s propensity to-

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Exactly.

Mike Konrad:
… keep talking. This is a three hour show, right?

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
It’s a three hour show. Well, this is part one of… I think we’re starting a series here.

Mike Konrad:
There you go.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Let’s pitch to Netflix, maybe they’ll pick it up.

Mike Konrad:
There you go.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
And…

Mike Konrad:
Might as well.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
But my talk in yours is actually interesting. I’m fascinated by entrepreneurial stories, right. And you have a very interesting story of how that spark happened, right, to start Aqueous, because it’s a special feeling, right? To start something from nothing basically, right. So my spark in your mind, and then developed to what’s today the clean equipment company in the world, right, which is Aqueous. Share with us that the feeling, right, when you said, this is yes, I’m going to start my own company, tread my own path to where you are now, right, sitting and being the key player in this market.

Mike Konrad:
Well, yeah, I’ve had a lot of time to reflect on that. And I enjoy speaking to college students on the same subject. I think you have done that too. In fact, I was invited to Dartmouth College last year to talk to their graduating engineers. And I love talking to them because they accept everything, everything’s possible, right? They don’t get jaded over the years like we do. But back in 1985, I said I was working for that soldering equipment company. I developed their line of cleaners for them. And I had a conversation with them, I said, we really need to get into cleaning. And they went, nah, no, we don’t need to be in cleaning, we’re a soldering equipment company. And I’m pounding the drums and I’m having this little tantrum, I’m like, we really need to get into cleaning. And they said, no they’re not interested.

Mike Konrad:
So finally, I made a deal with them. I said, okay, I feel so strongly about it. I’ll develop the equipment on my time. And I’m kind of clever, I’m not all that clever, but I’m clever enough to get it started. And I know some clever people and we can collaborate. So long story short I put a machine together, we brought it to them and we agreed that we would set up the side company, build the equipment at night, sell it by day.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Wow!

Mike Konrad:
So it was my equipment kind of licensed to my employer. And that was a great idea except I was not as good at building equipment as I was designing it and selling it. So it became pretty apparent with long lead times that I’m not in the manufacturing business. So I sold the equipment. I sold all the rights to it, to my employer for basically my costs. You can say I was a great business person back then. But I sold it for my cost and I was just happy because I thought naively that now my employer is going to be more successful so I’ll be more successful. And it was a big success. We were selling tons of these machines and I had this… I was in my thirties and I had this naive perception that I’m a bad-ass now. I saved the company and me, me, me, me, me. And, and I thought that the next time we had a product development meeting that I would be carried in on a chariot and fed grapes and fanned with all that hail Mike thing.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Hail to the master.

Mike Konrad:
Exactly. So they said, “Mike, what do you think we should build over the next few years?” And I came up with another cleaner idea. This one was going to be closed loop, no drain. And they went, eh, and then someone else came up with a dorky idea and they went with the dorky idea in my mind, they went with the dorky idea. And I got… I was pissed off, I was just absolutely furious and offended. And then I started thinking, well, wait a minute, if this is such a good idea why do I want someone else to pay for it? If this is such a good idea I should do it.

Mike Konrad:
And I had a talk with my wife and I looked through our bank account, which wasn’t good. And I thought, okay, well, if it’s really a good idea, if I really believe it, I’ll find a way to do it. So I wrote a business plan and took it to a bank and naively thought that because I have a business plan, they would listen to me. And they were kind enough to listen to me and then send me a rejection letter as did the next bank and the next bank and the next bank.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
You’re kidding me. They didn’t just give you a stash of money after you showed them your amazing business plan.

Mike Konrad:
I brought an empty briefcase expecting to fill it up, right. But I left empty handed.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
That’s insane.

Mike Konrad:
So at some point I raised the money, credit cards and family and lots of promises and gave my notice and said, okay, I’m ready to do it myself. And two months later after I signed a lease on a building and we were developing the first machine, I got sued by them, by my former employer.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Of course.

Mike Konrad:
And it turns out they didn’t like the idea that I was going to leave and compete. So they sued me and we went to trial and we won on everything and even were awarded some of our attorney’s fees back, which we never got, but anyway. And that was the beginning and then I started. Now I look back and I’m like, what are the skills that an entrepreneur has? What are the attributes of an entrepreneur? And one of the attributes is a very terrible sense of risk.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Yeah.

Mike Konrad:
Everyone would look… A hundred people will look at this and go, nope that’s nope, not going to do it. And an entrepreneur will look at it and go, well, there’s a one in a thousand chance it could work. Let’s do it, right?

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
A one in a thousand, it’s not zero, right?

Mike Konrad:
It’s one in a thousand, there’s one there, right? Someone’s got to win, right? It’s like the lottery somebody wins. So I think we have a terrible sense of risk. But those skills that are absolutely required to start a company absolutely required, a lousy assessment of risk and kind of a tunnel vision and passion and all those things. Without those you can’t really start a company and you know that Bill because you’ve done the same thing. You’re on the same path.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Yeah.

Mike Konrad:
And though… But those same skills though, if you don’t modify those skills, will kill your company.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Exactly.

Mike Konrad:
Because you can only sit at the poker table in Vegas for so many hands before statistically you’re going to lose. Kind of like Kenny Rogers, you got to know when to fold, you got to know… And I think those skills help you, but they will kill you. And to me… You’re a motorhead Bill, so every once in a while if I don’t run my old ’68 Mustang for a while, I have to throw a little starter fluid down the carburetor and then run and turn it on real quick and start it. I think the skills that entrepreneurs have are like starter fluid. You can start a car on starter fluid, but if you run it on starter fluid, you burn the valves, everything will just kind of blow up.

Mike Konrad:
So I think that’s the path I ended up ultimately on, is realizing that my startup skills are not my sustainability skills. And they’re good for start and growth, but they’re not good… They’re good to get you off the line, but they’re not good to sustain you. So it’s been a journey of learning new skills, learning how to manage risk, learning… It’s all risk, no guts, no glory when you start a company. But if you keep that up, you’re going to lose that company. Which is why so many companies fail.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Exactly. It’s a good point. Is not… Some people say that entrepreneurs are a risk averse. And I never like that concept. Oh, not a risk averse, but they like risk, right? They’re not risk averse. And I don’t think it’s lack of… It’s not the fact that we’re not risk averse. We just ignore it, right? We just… You look at the risk and you say, you know what, we’ll figure a way out. And I think you’ve done a phenomenal job growing Aqueous by understanding your visionary position in the company, right. The guy who sees beyond horizon.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
And I mean, and with that you have an amazing operator, John Hall, who’s been doing a phenomenal job, which… And then I really love how you’ve been growing that educational component, right, for Aqueous. And no, much like we do I mean, we don’t sell by say how amazing our wears are, but you educate people. And like you said before, you hope that an educated… Educate a person makes an educated decision and hopefully it’s going to be our products. But I mean, you have an amazing podcast, Reliability Matters. I just saw over 11,000 downloads. I had no idea it had such a big family. So, congratulations.

Mike Konrad:
I didn’t either. It’s a little scary.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Tell us about Reliability Matters. What’s that about and how long you been doing that?

Mike Konrad:
Yeah. I started a couple of years ago. I enjoy playing with new platforms usually before they’re quite ready for prime time. We started doing webinars more than 10 years ago, back when it was all go to meeting and…

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Yeah. Webex.

Mike Konrad:
Yeah. I mean, they were terrible, some still are, but they were terrible. You’d drop off halfway through, you couldn’t tell how many people were watching in the early days. You were talking into the blind basically you had no idea if there was anyone on the other side, which is a whole skill set that… You’re aware of that. When you’re talking, when you’re looking into a camera and you’re not looking into someone’s face it, you have no visual cues and things like that. So it’s a whole different skillset to learn, but-

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
To be fair Mike, even when I do live talks, I don’t have anyone to talk to you. So it’s… I’ve been used to that for a long time.

Mike Konrad:
Right. Exactly. Well, that’s yeah, we all talk to ourselves at some point, right. But the idea of the podcast came to me because I started listening to podcasts. I’m like, I love this technology because you can listen to it in the car. You can listen to it on a treadmill, not that I’m ever on a treadmill. And you can start and stop. It’s very convenient. So I thought, well I’ll try it. And I went on YouTube and took some lessons. Some twelve-year-olds on YouTube taught me how to do certain technical things and bought a microphone and a few little things and called up an old friend of mine Bob Willis, who’s pretty well known consultant in our industry. And I said, okay, I’ll start with him because he’s better known than I am and I’ll interview him. And he was kind enough to say, okay.

Mike Konrad:
I had absolutely zero audience because I’d never recorded a show before. And I recorded about an hour long show with him and then spent days editing it to make it sound perfect and launched it. And we had one or two subscribers and a couple of downloads and then came up with the next one. And I thought that we were going to do it every two weeks. I made a commitment to do it on the second and fourth Tuesday of every month. That forced me to keep it going. And I went through my digital Rolodex of contacts. I’ve been in the industry a long time as you have. And I thought, well, I’ll burn through my list of friends until they’re on to me. And once I run out of my kind of organic friends, then I’ll call it a day, I’ll move on to whatever is next. And that was about 70 episodes ago now. So it keeps going.

Mike Konrad:
And now like you said, we just passed our 11th download, which just completely astonishes me. And it’s not me. I’m a good host not because I’m a good host. I’m a good host because I’m rather ignorant on certain subjects. And because when I’m talking to subject matter experts, like you, you were a guest on my show.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Yes I was.

Mike Konrad:
I don’t know much about X-ray, right, so. But you do. But I’m really curious about certain things. I love to find out how things work. I’m a very curious person, always have been. When I was a kid I used to get into trouble because I would take my parents’ appliances apart, the clock radio and whatever, the blender. And I would try and figure out how it worked. The reason I got in trouble is I didn’t really have a desire to put it back together, at least completely.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Yeah.

Mike Konrad:
So my parents would always get mad because there’d be these things all in various states of…

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Well, and all those appliances, right Mike, they always have more pieces they actually need to work, right? So when you put it back together, you’re left over with like five screws and pieces that…

Mike Konrad:
One of my favorite things, and this is where I really got in trouble. I would take a transistor radio, little nine volt battery, and then I would take a pair of snippers and snip off a component. And to my shock, it still worked. I’m like, well, that was a waste of component, why did they put that in there? And then I keep snipping wires or leads until it stopped working. And I could snip five or so things off it and it would still work. Now who knows maybe noise filters, antenna gains, whatever they were for, they had a purpose I’m sure. But to me, I’m like, this isn’t a waste of time. I could build a radio with half the components because…

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
That’s awesome.

Mike Konrad:
Hence I got in trouble. But anyway, that curious mindset allows me to really learn about other subjects. So I talk about reflow with reflow experts and DFM with failure analysis experts, and X-ray with X-ray experts like yourself and profiling. Whatever topic we’re on has anything to do with reliability of circuit assemblies. I get to ask questions and it’s a lot better than snipping off components, right? I can just ask questions in a non-destructive way.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Yeah. So Mike, I just got a notice here from our producer. We don’t have one. But anyway, they said, they think a thousand of those downloads are from the X-ray episode. Just so you know.

Mike Konrad:
I’ll bet they were. I could look, but… Let me look. Oh, yes, you’re right. Yeah.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Exactly. Now…

Mike Konrad:
We should just have you on the show for every episode, right?

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Exactly. Yeah. That’d be a good way to stay at 11,000 episodes for a while, download. No, so you are a forward looking guy, right? You tried these platforms before they become a commonplace, right? You were doing podcasts before people knew in our industry, right? They knew what podcasts were.

Mike Konrad:
Within the industry anyway. Yeah.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Industry. Yeah.

Mike Konrad:
I like to do things that other people aren’t doing.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
With COVID and the shutdowns and this 13 month long march that we’ve had, it’s been a lot of digital presence in a lot of stuff out there. So what’s next, right? What’s the next way to interact with people, to connect, to have those conversations? What are you doing now that nobody else is?

Mike Konrad:
Well, in the big world we’re not doing anything that no one else is because podcasts and virtual meetings and virtual events are all pretty common now. Within our industry, we’re still a little bit unique. It’s ironic. I’m sure this irony has landed on you too, that for an industry that basically creates the future, much of our industry is still in the past in terms of how we function, right. We function are archaically to produce things that are very futuristic and high tech. But we do it sometimes in a low-tech way in terms of how we communicate. And that I think it’s part of the aging of our industry. A lot of people in our industry are… They call it The Silver Tsunami, they’ll soon be leaving the industry, they’ll soon be retiring out.

Mike Konrad:
And for the longest time there wasn’t a lot of young blood like David and you coming into the industry, it was all old guys and gals. And now we’re seeing a lot of young blood coming into the industry. And I think that will change the way we communicate as well. I think that’ll… The tech side of that will catch up. Clearly, you guys are doing this so… And other companies are starting to do it. I don’t know, well, I don’t know what’s going to be next. I do know that… I do believe that because of the pandemic it normalized virtual communication much more for the masses. Those of us that have been doing it for years really didn’t have a change. In fact, we had an advantage because we were ready to go. We didn’t have a learning curve.

Mike Konrad:
But I think now that we can communicate pretty effectively with customers, we can do virtual demonstrations rather than live demonstrations. And they’re not too far off, the value. I think once the pandemic is over many people will still be working from home and many people will still be doing virtual meetings. Because I think companies have started to enjoy the savings and the higher profits associated with not putting people on airplanes for stupid reasons and not flying in to look at something when you can look at it on a screen with high-def cameras and good sound and good lighting. It’s not a hundred percent of the experience, it’s maybe 60% of the experience, but it’s 0% of the cost.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Well, and then you get to have dinner with your family afterwards, right. So that has some value, right?

Mike Konrad:
Right. And one of the side effects of the shutdown has been, my grandkids, I have two grandkids. They go to school, they always get sick at certain times of the year. And then they share it with their grandparents, with my wife and I, and then we all go through this germy little kids get everybody sick. Nobody’s been sick for a year because they’re not… For the longest time they weren’t in school, they’re in school now, but no one’s been sick for a year. And me traveling on airplanes, I’m a road warrior, right. I travel all the time and I don’t get sick very often, but when I do, it’s always after a flight. And now I don’t have to sit in a germ filled aluminum tube and get sick. I can just look at a teleprompter and look at a monitor and here we are.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
How old are your grandkids?

Mike Konrad:
Six and nine.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Oh, great ages. That’s awesome. That’s best the best time. So what would you tell them, right, going back to my Mike Konrad, a 22 year old Mike Konrad. What would you tell yourself, what would you tell your grandkids to invest to start a business to do right now, knowing what you know?

Mike Konrad:
Well, I think if I gave a young me advice of what I know now. I wouldn’t have started a business not because I regret it at all. But the advice I would give would be counter productive, just starting the business. There almost needs to be this level of naivety, right? Naivety is a skill in terms of starting a business because of you’re aware of the risks. And let’s face it the small business administration says that 75% of all new businesses fail in 10 years. 75%.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
That’s a lot.

Mike Konrad:
Now, if you go to Vegas and play roulette, it’s very close to 50, 50. It’s like 51, 49. It’s actually a little better than that. So even in Vegas, the worst odds are 50, 50, right. And if you go into business there’s a 75% statistical chance that you’re not going to make it.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Yeah.

Mike Konrad:
And look at what we do in business. We invest personally, or we are responsible personally for maybe a million or two dollars, between inventory, and accounts payable, and tax liabilities, and guarantees that we’ve made on the lease for the building. At any given time any small business you might be on the hook for a million dollars. And if you net 10 grand at the end of the year net, pay taxes on 10 grand, you think that’s a success. Now, imagine if you went to Las Vegas and you sat at a table and you put a million dollar bet down for the chance to win 10 grand, but there’s a 75% chance you’re going to lose. You would never ever sit at that table. It’s horrible. The return is too low. So I think if we told that, if 60 year old Mike Konrad told 22 year Mike Konrad, these are the odds particularly in your first few years, 22 year old wouldn’t do it.

Mike Konrad:
So there’s an advantage in not knowing what you don’t know. And like I said earlier, the skills that are required, I wouldn’t call them really skills they’re more like attributes. So the attributes that are required to start a business is this tenacity, is this the ignoring of the risk. It’s just the passion. It’s everything the blood, sweat and tears that get a business going and keep it going and hopefully you’re smart enough.

Mike Konrad:
This is the advice I would give, realize that once you start a business and you get your first little taste of success, that’s when you need to start changing. Because those skills that got you there are going to lead to your demise if you don’t change. So what I thought was, we’ve all gone through the stage. I don’t know about you Bill, but I went through a stage where I was starting to get a little bit of success. And I’m like, oh man, I’m the smartest man on the planet. I did it, we’re there, I can start cruising now, I can take my foot off the pedal I don’t have to look in the rear view mirror anymore. And that’s when you realize that business is like a video game, you just passed level one. Now you’re in level two and level two has more monsters, more trap doors. You start losing lives, this whole thing, Jumanji kind of thing, right? Everything gets harder.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
The rules keep changing as well, right? The rules are not always the same.

Mike Konrad:
Oh, they change every year… Every Level there’s new rules and there’s new ways to get you, right? So and that’s when you realize, I think that business is not about starting that’s hard, but it’s really about sustaining. And the other thing I would teach my younger self, maybe not at 22, but maybe I’d hold this advice in a time capsule and tell him to open it in 10 years, is the concept of growth. I was led to believe that you need to grow, to survive, grow, grow, grow, more sales, more sales, more sales. Well, if you push your people for more sales, they’re going to get more sales, but they’re not going to be profitable sales. And it’s going to bring in sales to keep you happy.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Exactly.

Mike Konrad:
And I think at some point we realized that growth is not always good. Choosing your customer, buying your customer, having your customer choose you, buy you is really the way to do it. And sometimes the most profitable word in sales is no. No, we’re not going to take that order. And so I think there has to be a really good partnership between the customer and the supplier. It’s not just a conquest thing. In the early days it’s a conquest thing. Yeah, we got that order, yeah! Now let’s get the other one. And sometimes the most savvy thing that we can do is let that customer go to your competitor because it’s like a Trojan horse. They’ll destroy them instead of destroying you. That’s the wrong customer, right?

Mike Konrad:
So, I mean, but I think you have to learn that in the right timing. I think there’s a sequence for learning those things. And if you have all that knowledge too soon, you’ll never start. So I’d liken it to the shifting of a transmission, a manual transmission, you can’t start in fifth gear.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
No.

Mike Konrad:
You start in first. But you can’t go fast in first. So you start in first, which is just really high torque, high leverage. And then you shift into second and then you shift into third. And a lot of businesses fail, 75% of all businesses fail in 10 years because they never get out of first or second gear.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Yep.

Mike Konrad:
Or they try and start in fifth gear and they need that high torque, first gear. So it’s…

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Or they forget the clutch, right?

Mike Konrad:
I’m trying to use as many automotive analogies as I can because I know you’re very into cars, so.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Or you forget the clutch, right? And you go from first to second and in a very truncated and sometimes you kill the car, right, so.

Mike Konrad:
Yeah. Exactly.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
I love that analogy.

Mike Konrad:
So it’s a sequence to start a business, it’s the sequence. And every sequence works at the right time. It doesn’t work in another time.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Exactly.

Mike Konrad:
I think that’s what I’ve learned.

David Kruidhof:
Okay. Well, we are out of time. So…

Mike Konrad:
Speaking of, yeah.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Speaking of exactly. I think we’re over one question, David. I think we did great today.

David Kruidhof:
Yeah. I think we got like two or three in there.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Mike, thanks so much, man. This was awesome. We really appreciate it.

Mike Konrad:
Oh my pleasure. Thanks. I’ve watched your Fireside Chat and of course, I am prepared to have a fire next to me. I was going to have this on the whole time, but I just thought it was moderately creepy. It’s like an old man in a dark house or something. So I’m glad I didn’t stay with it.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
And for you guys listening, check Reliability Matters a really cool podcast from Mike, a lot of good stuff there. Download it and put in your iTunes and whatever you’re listening to a podcast, right.

David Kruidhof:
Yeah.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
…to get the new stuff.

Mike Konrad:
And look up the Bill Cardoso episode. That’ll really push us over to the next 11,000, so.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
If you want to fall asleep it’s a good for those sleepless nights.

Dr. Bill Cardoso:
Thanks so much Mike.

David Kruidhof:
All right. Thank you, Mike.

Mike Konrad:
Thank you everybody.

David Kruidhof:
Great to have you on.

Mike Konrad:
Thank you.

David Kruidhof:
Talk to you all again soon. Bye.

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